Our guest for episode 99 is Frédérique Six, Associate Professor of Public Governance at the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam and a visiting professor at the GOVTRUST Centre of Excellence at the University of Antwerp. She explores the complex relationship between trust and control within organizations, particularly those that perform public tasks such as healthcare, education, and policing. She explains two main perspectives on the relationship between trust and control. The traditional view sees them as substitutes, where more control means less trust, and vice versa. However, she advocates for a more nuanced view, where trust and control can complement each other. When controls are experienced as enabling rather than coercive, they help build trust by promoting fairness, predictability, and ethical behavior.

She also discusses her use of motivation theory, which distinguishes between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. According to this theory, employees perform better when their basic psychological needs—autonomy, competence, and relatedness—are met. Frédérique explains how these needs are influenced by control systems and how this balance affects both trust and motivation within organizations.

Frédérique highlights the multifaceted nature of trust, noting that it is context-dependent but guided by a universal sequence: a trustor assesses the trustworthiness of a trustee and decides whether to take a trusting action based on that assessment. She explains that while trust is influenced by situational factors, there are common elements across different contexts, which makes trust a universal yet complex phenomenon.

As the discussion concludes, Frédérique reflects on the challenges faced by young researchers studying trust. She believes that identifying and challenging deeply held beliefs about trust and control will be crucial for advancing trust-based governance. While this is high-risk research, she encourages young professionals to question the status quo to drive meaningful change.

Our guest today is Henry Brady, Professor of Political Science and Public Policy at UC Berkeley, California, about the decline of trust in American institutions. Henry explains that trust in key sectors, such as the military, media, and higher education, has been steadily eroding since the 1970s, influenced by events like the Vietnam War, Watergate, economic inequality, and political polarization. He discusses how different events and historical contexts have led to varying levels of trust in these institutions, noting that while trust in the military has fluctuated due to wars and national crises, trust in other institutions has generally declined due to broader societal changes.

He also examines the growing polarization of trust along party lines, with Democrats and Republicans displaying contrasting levels of trust in institutions like the media, police, and higher education. This polarization complicates efforts to address institutional reform and governance, making it harder to find common ground. He emphasizes how declining trust affects daily life, such as during the COVID-19 pandemic, where mistrust in public health institutions led to widespread misinformation and vaccine hesitancy.

Henry highlights the role of economic inequality in eroding trust, arguing that rising inequality and increasing diversity have fostered a sense of distrust and division among Americans. To rebuild trust, he advocates for stronger local media, improved civic education, and initiatives like citizens' assemblies that encourage dialogue and understanding across divides. He also emphasizes the importance of addressing systemic issues to build trust at a societal level, suggesting that focusing on fairness, institutional performance, and civic engagement is key to fostering a more trusting society.

As the discussion concludes, Henry reflects on the challenges facing young researchers studying trust. He suggests that while there is some understanding of how to build trust on an individual level, more research is needed on how to foster trust on a larger, societal scale. His insights offer a thoughtful exploration of the complexities surrounding trust in American democracy and potential strategies for rebuilding it.

Our guest today is Sidney Dekker, Professor and Director of the Safety Science Innovation Lab at Griffith University in Brisbane, Australia. He explores the negative effects of a blame culture in organizations and advocates for a restorative justice approach. He explains how blaming leads to a lack of honesty and authenticity, negatively impacting organizational learning, performance, and safety. He explains that a blame culture causes individuals to hide mistakes rather than address underlying systemic issues. He emphasizes that restorative justice focuses on impacts, needs, and obligations rather than rule violations and consequences. He also touches on the concept of human error, arguing that it should be seen as a consequence of deeper organizational troubles rather than the cause. The focus should be on understanding why people made certain decisions based on their goals and knowledge at the time, rather than blaming them for errors.

Throughout the interview, Sidney provides practical examples to illustrate his points. He cites the Apollo 13 mission as an example of successful crisis management through trust in frontline operators and focusing on what is working rather than what is broken. He discusses the importance of including multiple stakeholder perspectives to learn and improve organizational practices. When addressing severe cases like a dam breaking due to government negligence, Dekker argues for a restorative approach to accountability. This involves truth-telling, repentance, and actions to repair harm and address the needs of affected individuals.

He also connects his views to Kant's philosophy, suggesting that while past actions cannot be undone, the relational consequences can be addressed through restorative practices. He reflects on recent incidents of inappropriate behavior in organizations, stressing the need to address broader sociological issues rather than just individual behaviors. Trust, built on compassion and empathy, is fundamental to fostering a just and safe organizational culture. Sidney concludes by emphasizing the importance of trust in both professional and personal contexts, highlighting its role in collective success and his commitment to promoting restorative justice in organizational safety practices.