In this conversation Marc Gafni, Zak Stein, and Ken Wilber delve into the complex nature of value, exploring its definitions, interconnectedness, and implications in various contexts. The speakers discuss the relationship between Eros, ethics, and the concept of holons, emphasizing the importance of understanding value as a field that encompasses all aspects of existence. They also touch on the balance of drives, the role of consciousness, and the evolutionary process of value, ultimately seeking to clarify the intricate dynamics that govern our understanding of value in the universe.

This conversation delves into the complex themes of value, postmodernism, and the interplay between eternal and evolving values. The speakers explore how postmodernism has influenced contemporary views on value, the significance of storytelling in understanding time, and the human role in shaping values within a cosmic framework. They discuss the philosophical implications of these ideas, drawing on historical and contemporary thinkers to illustrate their points.

The conversation explores the concept of selection and its role in the universe. It delves into the idea that selection exists at multiple levels, from physics to biology to human civilization. The discussion also touches on the question of why certain things are selected for and others are not, and how humans have the ability to override natural selection through technology. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding the values and principles that underlie selection processes in order to navigate the challenges of the metacrisis and ensure a positive future. Desire is a sacred and powerful force that moves towards value. Without a field of value, we are stuck in old scripts and pseudo forms of value. The selection criteria and story can be changed by introducing the value of clarifying desire. Imagination is the faculty that perceives the first principles and first values, allowing us to hold the image of others when they are not present. The imaginal faculty is essential for empathy and understanding. Fantasy is the ability to hold the image of another's need and imagine possible futures. The imagination is crucial for envisioning a better world and creating change.